JUDITH RICHARDS: Are you involved in creating those settings in the booths, as you described? I mean, also I thought Boston was the most European city in America. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I lovethat's something I did start doing in 2008. And I said, "I'm not going back to school. CLIFFORD SCHORER: In the Boston area. clifford schorer winslow homer. JUDITH RICHARDS: So when you moved into that, were therewere there any, again, mentors or sources of inspiration, information about collecting in that field? To me, what's happened is, it's a lifestyle that maybe is going away, the lifestyle of the sort of dedicated scholar, in high, euphemistic quotes, collector who would buy one major painting per year, who would study, study, study, study, study until they found that moment, and then it would come and they would buy it, and they put it in their collection, and then they die with a 29-painting collection that's extraordinary. Winslow Homer (1836-1910), A Fishergirl Baiting Lines (1881), watercolor, 31.8 48.3 cm, Yale University Art Gallery, New Haven, CT. Wikimedia Commons. I mean, I'm still waiting for the great Quentin Matsys show. They have these kindthey have everything from 19th-century styles to very Modernist styles, and it'sit gives us a chance to say, you know, here's a modern interior, with a beautiful thing. I mean, was there a kind of sense that you have when you look back that there was a certain period of time when you were doing a lot of research and reading? In 2019, Clifford Schorer, an entrepreneur and art dealer from Boston, stopped by the shop to purchase a last-minute gift. Bree Winslow . And then, you know, I appreciate it; even if they don't know who I am, I appreciate it. Alf Clausen, film composer. And you know, I got to know him less and less during that period. [00:20:00], So I'm looking at it, I'm looking at it, and I'm reading the label, and the label says it's King Seuthes III of 740 BC or something. We'll get into that in a few minutes. Summary: An interview with Clifford Schorer conducted 2018 June 6-7, by Judith Olch Richards, for the Archives of American Art and the Center for the History of Collecting in America at the Frick Art Reference Library of The Frick Collection, at the offices of the Archives of American Art in New York, New York. This was something that you were aware of. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That is related to Agnew's. JUDITH RICHARDS: It sounds like you had a natural eye. I mean, the output of those workshops was massive, massive. That book should be out very soon, actually. You walk in; there's no receptionist. We made pigments; we ground pigments; we made egg tempera. So, yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: sort of with art 24-7 in London because I have the gallery. I mean, it was, you know. I remember he was 90 when he bowled a 300. Thank you for supporting the National Gallery of Art National Gallery of Art Custom Prints; About National Gallery of Art Custom Prints; It was never conceived as sort of being able to carry, you know, a 19th-century or earlier painting. And I stillI still have quite a few drawings that are related to paintings that are interesting to me. ONE SIZE ONE SIZE 16.0cm10.8cm5.3cm ! . CLIFFORD SCHORER: My grandfather and I had a similar language about the world. [00:58:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, that's hard. I think not. And so, you know, now that I see they're buying great things, they're talking to people I know about pictures I know, about things I know about, and that creates an inherent conflict. You know, you can only do so much of it; otherwise, you have a saccharine high. You can admire; if you want to buy, you pay our price and you buy. Death . I mean, for the price of a multiple by Damien Hirst, you can buy a Reynolds, you know. I never actually mentioned my age. [Laughs. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And again, we got plenty of press about it. Of course. So, you knowand the money they made is what made the Rembrandts. Best Match AGE -- Clifford A Schorer Jr Utica, NY Phone Number Address Background Report Addresses Trenton Rd, Utica, NY Sweet Fern Rd, Stroudsburg, PA Pleasant Ave, Herkimer, NY So I went to Spain, and I tried to buy both of the remaining paintings. And so I painted one Madonna and Child with pickles and fruit [they laugh], which is the Carlo Crivelli typical. It's actually, you knowit's the kernel of what you do as a collector without the headache of the aftermath. And then I would say when I was aroundand this tied well into the art world. She goes away, and she brings back a photograph of a 16-foot-deep hole in the ground, a modern color photograph of a 16-foot-deep hole in the ground, with them excavating this head. Our older colleagues might have found it charlatanism, but that's understandable. Or not. I mean, it's. So I said, "Okay." CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no, no. About. JUDITH RICHARDS: In the yearsI guess in your late teens, early 20s, when you were collecting in the Chinese fieldwhen you were in any country that had an active market in that area, were you investigating that and thinking, and did you ever make purchases there, beyond Boston? So you have lots of interesting things in Bulgaria, but they're basically in the sort of, you know, big, communist, ornate, central museum in Sofia. JUDITH RICHARDS: because most of the material was only sold at auction? He soon turned his talent to oil painting. No, I was 15 and a half. Not a lot of pieces, because they were much more expensive. But you know, of course, he's not writingin my mind, I think of him as a historian rather than an art historian. JUDITH RICHARDS: your fellow collectors? They said, "If you take the car, you'll be murdered." [00:54:00]. However, the Sebastiano Ricci that they had was also a masterpiece, and, you know, I spent a lot of time staring at it, and I remember the detail that made me think, All right, I'll ask about that as well. Clifford owns the following phone numbers: (617) 262-0166 (Verizon New England, Inc), (617) 469-5654. Howwhat was the process of that reattribution officially? Has that changed over the years in the fieldthe painting field that you collect in; the level of competition? It didn't say exactly, but it was a level. But I think that would bleed money away from my other, more serious interests. I lived between New York and Martha's Vineyard. He was a good discoverer. And I'm, you know, this is probablyI'm trying to think what year it is. It was amazing. And I brought it to the museum and delivered it, and they installed it directly. You know, you name it. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, no, no, I mean, I had particular moments in cities, but, yes. Do I say, you know, "Excuse me, ladies and gentlemen, because I know how much this costs, where it came from, blah, blah, blah?" And, frankly, after the story is lostand the story is what sells the picture, and then the picture is burned at auction; then it's worth half of what it was before you did that. But my desire to live in the middle of nowherethis was in Meriden, New Hampshire, which was literally the middle of nowherewith 400 other. You know, there's a lack of understanding [of what] the agencyyou know, our agencywould be to them, our agency would be to the seller. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Frustrating, enjoyable, you know, disheartening. And, obviously, I can continue that when I put something on loan by going into the room and listening to people talk about it, you know, and that adds to the experience around the art. Researchers should note the timecode in this transcript is approximate. I mean, I think it was a natural evolution. Last year, Schorer used a reverse . CLIFFORD SCHORER: Islip, I think. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no, so I had minor collecting in that area, JUDITH RICHARDS: While you were collecting. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Not long. I went from, you know, the Gustave Moreau museum to theor well, pre-d'Orsay, right? You know, I electrified it when I got it home, because it was a gasit was a gas and candle, so. [Laughs. But I was happy to help. CLIFFORD SCHORER: and that's an area that, as I've expanded my interest in, because Agnew's has such a deep archive on that material, so, you know, one of the first big projects we did with Anthony [Crichton-Stuart] was a phenomenal Pre-Raphaelite exhibition and show, and, you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: This is Judith Olch Richards interviewing Cliff Schorer on June 7, 2018, at the Archives of American Art New York City offices. And every day I would pass through Richmond. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. So the painting ended up going to auction at Sotheby's, with a lower estimate. Winslow Homer. And I hadn't ever sold anything, so there was no selling going on. [Laughs.]. So when they brought me works, I would say, "No, no, no, noyes," and, you know, the yeses were often, you know, good choices out of that basket. And if I understood all those things, and we had a yes, then they had my money, but otherwiseso, for them, I think often, you know, I was not the first choice. They'reyou know, they're interesting folks to read about. I love computer languages. [Laughs.] JUDITH RICHARDS: So now you've kind of put collecting on the back burner. JUDITH RICHARDS: He took a more traditional path. I mean, you know, that's. Winslow Homer. That's the [laughs] sort of Latinate spelling. And at the end of that exerciseI have some wonderful photos of that house, because it wasI sold that house two years agoand it was a long process. [00:25:59]. There were interesting stories in those paintings. I mean [00:02:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. But the turnaround comes: the Procaccini was owned by [Piero] Corsini. So several years later he passed away, and apparently they hadn't yet sold the Procaccini. He was a television actor, and now he's an attorney in the U.K., so. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: the Lewis family. And I've been in Boston ever since. There are a number of hats I had to take off. So, you know, we can talk endlessly about art, and, you know, he invites me to his house, and we look at art. I've got some Islamic examples. CLIFFORD SCHORER: these are bigger projects. That'sI thinkwe're there now at the end of our, whatever, 10-year plan. Are there other museum committees thatwell, I suppose if you lived in New York, you'd contemplate being part ofbut have there been or are there other opportunities like that you've, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, there would be, CLIFFORD SCHORER: opportunities I think, CLIFFORD SCHORER: yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: '80; I think I was class of '87 or '88. Armed with little more than his wits, Winslow Homer was, at 25, one of only a few artist-reporters embedded with Union troops for Harper's Weekly Illustrated. JUDITH RICHARDS: But for you as an individual collector? The Spanish state effectively seized one of them, and I got the other one, so I got an export license for the other one. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, if I fall off a bridge in the next few months, everything goes to the various museums. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is this inbased in Londonbased in Boston? So what we had to focus on was, Were they 20th-century, or 19th-century with apocryphal marks? JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And the flea markets then were. This huge chandelier. ", CLIFFORD SCHORER: "We know he dropped out after two and a half years, but you want this guy." So I started looking at Daniele Crespi. Not, Were they scientifically designed fakes made to deceive? That's fun. I mean, a real Reynolds. So you have to have a different model. He bought the [Frans] Snyders HouseSnyders is the artist. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And often, those are the ones I cannot afford under any circumstances. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you had this 300-and-some-piece collection, were you displaying it in your apartment? I spoke to others who came to buy for their trade. [00:56:00]. And you know, we had sort of half-begging, half-boasting meetings where we said, "Yes, we know the boy got all Fs in high school. JUDITH RICHARDS: This is on your father's side? CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, and everything else in Amsterdam. JUDITH RICHARDS: So, in thoseyou mentioned your great-grandfather and his collectionwhen you were in grade school, and even in high school, what were your main interests? We had 15 layers of varnish and retouches to take off, and underneath we had a masterpiece. Of the blue-and-white, and the highly decorated, sort of the Qing period stuff, that's all gone. You're very involved in it, and you've developed this expertise in computer programming. "Oh, okay, thisall this 19th-century porcelain. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is this something that youthat the Worcester Art Museum had to deal with, or have they always had good-quality climate control? [Laughs.] R-O. [00:26:02]. So I have a whale vertebrae the size of this table. Last year waswe had a three-day thing in Rome. So you have dead artists' legacies advocating, which I think is a much easier thing to negotiate. So you know, they have a castI mean, there are only three complete specimens, so you basically getyou buy a cast of one if you want to show one. And that was another thing, too. JUDITH RICHARDS: Could anything be done? JUDITH RICHARDS: What did you call it? JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you acquire any friends? Clifford celebrated 56th birthday on May 31. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And then we get on our airplanes, and we start flying around, looking for things, yeah. In her later years, Olive was described by one of her . And old man Lewis and I had a few passing conversations in the hallway of his building. But, I mean, I can tell, you know, when yet another picture arises from a certain quarter, what we're dealing with. Just a sense of [laughs], CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, in a way. So, you know, in the stamp world, yes. [They laugh.] Nine times out of 10, they would have been in the Albertina or in the Met or in, you know, fill in the blank. JUDITH RICHARDS: Has it impacted your collecting as you imagined it would or in any different way? JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you think it's a mark of a good dealer that he will engage in that conversation without pressing you to find out who you are? Date. So, sure, I read, you know, whatever I could find. You know, by the time you're done with all of those things, youyou know, your five percent or seven-and-a-half percent commission is completely consumed, and then some. 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